| |  "Duke University had a four week study that"
, Sun 7 Apr 13:49
showed no adnormalities of liver function after using Kava for 4 week. See Time Magazine dated April 8th. It just recommend using it with common sense.
Posts: 21 | | Registered: Wed 27 Feb 2002 16:59 |
| | | "Re(1):Duke University had a four week study t" , Sun 7 Apr 16:11
Thanks for the heads-up, Donald. Is this the article you were referring to?
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,221151,00.html
They make an interesting comment in there:
"If there's something wrong with [kava], the burden of proof falls on the FDA ... the FDA's hands are tied until researchers can establish a definite causal link between kava and liver disease. That could take years."
This is the opposite situation to that in Germany, according to this article, which says:
"In Germany the approach taken is that herbal remedies must be free of serious risk. Hence, even if that risk is quite low, the authorities will be required to act."
Epyx
Posts: 143 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(2):Duke University ...exact quote" , Sun 7 Apr 18:36
A four-week study carried out at the Duke University Medical Center this fall concluded that kava, used responsibly, poses no significant health hazard. "We didn't observe any abnormalities in liver function or any other significant side effects," says Dr. Kathryn Connor, one of the authors of the study. She points out that some of the cases reported in Europe were complicated by extraneous factors; some patients had been taking extremely high doses of kava over long periods of time, or using it with alcohol, or taking it on top of a pre-existing liver condition. (Signs of liver trouble include jaundice, nausea, light-colored stools, fatigue and stomach pain.)
EPYX: I really appreciate your posts. Scientific but with common sense.
Posts: 23 | | Registered: Wed 27 Feb 2002 16:59 |
| | | "Jos, Donald, Don't buy it (Kava)" , Mon 8 Apr 09:57
The simple fact of the matter is, your taking a risk when buying Kava. I can create a 4 week study and have people drink beer for four weeks, and their liver enzyme levels may not change at all. One does not develop liver disease or other such conditions until after sustained periods of use - which was not done in the Duke University study.
You will also see many websites trying to 'spin' the truth about the Kava health hazards, and how its not as bad as it is made out to be. While this may be true in part - you have to look at WHO is writing the article. Many of them on the web are written by people who are in denial and use Kava, or associates of those who sell Kava and are seeing a sales decrease. Notice the time at which these criticisms are released, they all are within a few weeks of eachother and it comes at about the time when less people are buying Kava.
Don't be fooled by people on boards who will tell you to continue to keep taking a drug because they 'don't buy the report' and 'consider it safe because...' - just because someone on a board rationalizes something doesn't make it safe. Many people get defensive when they're favorite mediciine is deemed unsafe and they'd swear it was all a conspiracy even if it wiped out 1000 people - you have to take that into consideration as well. There is a difference between someone hypothesizing that it is still safe, and someone wanting it to be safe.
I could understand taking it if this just came out of nowhere, after 1 case - and the FDA and international medical organizations were quick to take it off the market because its costing Rx medicine brands money through competition. But that isn't the case. The German Medical board, and other such organizations in Europe like Kava and are not skeptical about herbs as we are in America so they would have no such ulterior motive. Even over here, the FDA may be under pressure to remove it from the shelves but they have done nothing of the sort aside from launch a simple investigation - no statements have been made calling kava 'unsafe to sell or consume' as many would lead you to believe.
The bottom line is, you're taking a risk while taking Kava and there are many other anti anxiety medicines out there to try. I took it for 2 months and I stopped in December. You may say, "Well XXXX mediciine has XX side effects." That may be true, but would you rather be fatigued all day from Paxil or risk liver disease from Kava. Liver failure isn't a side effect I'm prepared to endure.
Just wait until the FDA finishes its investigation, they are pretty thorough, they may deem it safe and the 30 cases due to other factors. They may simply issue some warnings about long term consumption and duel use with alcohol. Or they may find something and take it off the market all together. The lesson to be learned is, don't proceed to assume something is completely safe just because you still feel ok after 4 weeks, or because no reports on mixing kava and alcohol had been filed yet, don't assume this as we all did a year ago, ESPECIALLY now that the safety of Kava is in question. That would be denial.
Posts: 25 | | Registered: Tue 29 Jan 2002 19:58 |
| | | "Re(1):Jos, Donald, Don't buy it (Kava)" , Mon 8 Apr 12:25:
Nice to have a dissenting voice on here. I think though that you are misrepresenting what I and others are saying.
Firstly, I want to make it clear that I don't write about Kava in here because I want people to take Kava. What I want is for people to become more informed about the health choices that they make, and to think about what forces operate against consumers taking a more active role in their own health care. In particular, the Kava scare poses a number of interesting questions about comparative risk and the concept of "safety".
Re the 4-week study: This is a straw-man argument, yet it seems to be the major thrust of what you wrote. A 4-week study means diddly even in my book; it's too short, too small and too narrow.
Re website "spin": Just a bit too glib there. You seem to think that the herbal industry is a collection of partisan interests arrayed against a benevolent and impartial FDA/BfArM. You've got to be kidding! The whole health industry is a collection of vested interests, largely dominated by powerful pharmaceutical companies. The regulatory authorities also fall into the same sphere of influence. They do not operate in a political vacuum and are frequently compromised by drug company interests e.g. the history of aspartame approval.
Re FDA and thoroughness: More rubbish. Just look at how they handled the L-tryptophan controversy. They demonised L-tryptophan and banned OTC sales. Months later the CDC proved it was a batch contamination issue -- but the FDA never re-visited it. Kava is being demonised the same way.
I'll stop there for now. I think its very timely that a new forum reader has posted about stopping kava after having success with it. This underlines the point I've been trying to make about comparative risk. If someone drops kava for a med with a higher hepatotoxic risk (e.g. a benzo), then that's nonsensical, yet that's what the authorities are promoting.
I'm proud to consider myself a scientifically-trained person who has enough understanding to read studies and reports and who can separate hype from fact. Anyone who takes the most cursory glance over the 24 German case reports can see that BfArM has cause and effect all muddled up. The press is very fond of leading their kava stories by mentioning the patient who died. But they never tell you that she had a history of long-term alcohol abuse, and that this was confirmed as the causal factor at autopsy! And even if every case demonstrated a conclusive link, this still represents a lower hepatotoxic risk than the alternatives. The lesson is: Don't believe everything you see on the news.
Lastly, I'm not here to make ex cathedra pronouncements about what is safe and what isn't. I only want to try to give people the best quality information and then let them decide for themselves. After all, isn't that why we all come here in the first place?
Epyx
[this message was edited by Epyx on Wed 10 Apr 23:44]
Posts: 158 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(2):Jos, Donald, Don't buy it (Kava)" , Wed 10 Apr 11:25
Hi Epyx, I had some time today so I am catching up on the site - so you probably have seen a couple of my comments/reply's to your posts.
Anyway, again you are dead on. I agree that it is important to make informed decisions regarding your health care. Unfortunately, physicians and others in the health care field, at least in the U. S., have significant pressures to "dis" herbals in favor of FDA approved medications. Just the liability insurance issue alone is enough.
However, what this leads to is that the very real risks inherent in FDA approved medications are downplayed. For example, common aspirin, administered to children - in my opinion anyone under 21, has been conclusively shown to cause Reye's (sometimes spelled Rye's) syndrome - which is often fatal. Do we see media calls to ban aspirin? No. Other medications also have risks: for people on this site depresion medications are a good example. Tricyclic anti-depressants (not first choice but still used) have an LD 50 of two to three times the standard dose. This means that 50% of the subjects taking just twice or sometimes three times the prescibed dose could die.
So, all medications (even herbals) have risks. I think that first, if you want to take an herbal, yes - check with your doctor - you may get a general never use herbals but push for specifics, usually you will find that, while the doctor will (have) to say that there is no clinical evidence to support any effect, there is no evidence of harm. But you may also find that there are good reasons NOT to take an herbal: interactions with other medications you are taking, problems caused by other medical conditions you may have etc. But get informed! Every medication, even aspirin, has risks - just know what the risks/benefits are and make an informed choice.
Posts: 13 | | Registered: Wed 13 Mar 2002 8:58 |
| | | "Re(3):Jos, Donald, Don't buy it (Kava)" , Wed 10 Apr 23:37
Leo, I've just been reading up on Reye's Syndrome and I noticed that the Surgeon-General, the FDA and the CDC all recommend against giving aspirin to children (!) under 19 during episodes of viral-related fever (e.g. flu, cold). Having now read how quickly Reye's Syndrome can progress to fatality when untreated, I'm stunned as to how aspirin can remain in the marketplace at all, or at least without solid warnings of the type that accompany tobacco products.
Re public liability: I noticed that even the naturopaths in the UK had no choice but to accept the current UK withdrawal of kava. It was too risky for them to continue using it in defiance of the current advisories.
I see users in a lot of self-medication forums play their answers safe by saying "see your doctor". Now that is fine advice, but like you, I would like to see people push their doctor for specifics. For example, what particular interactions are we talking about? What is the risk/reward mix for the alternatives? Is there an alternative management strategy? (e.g. periodic monitoring)
Taking that concept further, I have been challenging people to look past the dosage labels on their herbal packages. Find out what a safe dose is. Find out what the minimal therapeutic dose is according to the studies. Find out the generally accepted maximal dose. Find out how to structure your dosing schedule. Are there accepted co-factors that enhance its action?
If we self-medicate, then we must get informed in order to have the most chance of success.
Epyx
Posts: 157 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(4):Jos, Donald, Don't buy it (Kava)" , Thu 11 Apr 12:48
Hi Epyx, thanks, I posted on the 'general discussions' something that may interest you: the latest article in the American Medical Assoication April issue saying St. John's Wort is ineffective - for Major Depression, no mention that most sites and the german studies recommend SJW for minor to moderate depression only. Anyway, I also replied here so you will (hopefully) catch it when you check the site again. Best, Leo
Posts: 16 | | Registered: Wed 13 Mar 2002 8:58 |
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