Topic Title: Bipolar depression
| |  "Bipolar depression"
, Fri 5 Sep 23:10:
Hey All, Newbie here:
What a great site! I came in to find info, and WOW this is the place. Big thanks to Kelly.
I wanted to contribute this, for what it's worth. I read ALL of Kelly's info. I am a sufferer of moderate to severe clinical depression, pretty much continuously, for near 30 years now, diagnosed 21 years ago. During most of this time, I have taken Imiprimine (one of the 'old' tricyclics), Zoloft, and Paxil, all with good success. I switched because after several years, one becomes ineffective to you. I am just beginning on St. John's Wort, and will keep the page informed. . . Two points, related, bear with me please:
1) Kelly's comment on depression and making you creative, depression being sometimes a good thing. . . .
2) An emailer's comment that SJW is not appropriate and may be dangerous for someone who is bipolar. . . .
I agree with both basically, but wanted to add some personal stuff, in case someone finds themselves in similar circumstances. . . .
I make my LIVING as a writer and designer. If I couldn't access that part of my personality I would just not know how to live. I am medicated because, like Kelly, I HAD to be. My quality of life was so in jeopardy with depression that I could not function. If you can't function two things happen: you cannot get organized enough to create anything (much less market it), and you start to feel incompetent and worthless (not good when you are depressed).
In recent years. . .maybe the past 10, my doctors have begun to suspect that my depression is bipolar. (NOTE: There are many TYPES of BP Depression, in my case the manic phase is not severe - I get very creative and driven and confident and energetic. The worst thing is I don't sleep for like 3 days. I do not get angry, aggressive, engage in dangerous behavior, nothing like that.) My physicians and I have discussed how to treat this. I expressed fears - to two separate psychiatrists - that if we were to medicate the mood swings (such as with Lithium) my creativity would suffer greatly. To my surprise, they BOTH confirmed that this was likely. So . . . . . some mood extremes are normal and even productive, albeit painful, in creative personalities. I choose at this point NOT to medicate for mood swings.
However at this point my mania is not so severe that it would be dangerous to leave it untreated. And at this point, it not only does not impede my function in day to day life, it may help my creative flow. . . . this may change someday and in BPD, which can increase in severity as years pass, it is likely that it WILL change.
Therefore I only medicate for depression, which in me is constant if left untreated, and can be severe at its worst, and moderate at its best. I wanted to share this for those who may run into the same situation. SJW may make sense for me, because for someone like myself who will be on some medication for depression every day for life, it is one more option. I would like to try it as an alternative, at a time when the effectiveness of Paxil is lately wearing off. Rather than go on Zoloft (which was GREAT for me) right away, I'd like to try SJW.
However, in time the mood swings may become more extreme, the mania becoming more unmanageable without medication. At that point, I will have some decisions to make.
I wanted to say that I agree with Kelly on his philosophy, that for some people depression is okay. . . . in small doses. BUT, as he says, a depression that makes you forget what life is supposed to be like when you are happy, ruins your relationships, adversely effects your perception of the world, detroys your self esteem, and/or leaves you too dehabilitated to LIVE your life fully. . . demands medicinal intervention.
Indeed that sort of depression is not sadness related to life events, it is a medical condition, and demands and deserves aggressive attention and treatment. SJW, like other antidepressants (SSRI's, MAOI's, whatever), offers one more option for an answer. . . .
One more thing. . . . . the antidepressant meds have had some effect on my creativity .. . . . still, I would and do take them, because the alternative is worse. Through the years, I have found that what depth in myself can't be accessed as easily because of meds, can be accessed in other ways (no, not illicit drugs! he he .. . . although . . . . ) I have made it a personal quest to explore this, and do have some ideas if anyone needs some. Answer to this post, with your email addy, and I'll respond. Don't want to bore all of you here.
[this message was edited by Sheepy on Fri 5 Sep 23:20]
Posts: 1 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| Replies:
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| |  "Re(1):Bipolar depression"
, Sun 7 Sep 21:34
Hey, just replying to myself!!! he he. . . . . well, it's official. . . this stuff is WORKING. I am trying Kelly's recommendations of taking it before bed. . . . I am having the BEST sleep I've had in YEARS, even on the traditional antidepressants.
One of my major symptoms of oncoming bouts of severe depression, is dreams that are weird and paranoid. . . always someone is persecuting me somehow, and I can't stop it. I HATE these dreams. I wake up feeling icky, and start the day like that. I had weaned myself off a large Paxil dose for two weeks, ending about 10 days before starting the SJW. I was just starting to have THE dreams, without any antidepressant in my system. . . .but the first night of the SJW, slept like a baby, BETTER than that!, pleasant dreams. At the time I'm having a major crisis, involving painful conflict with people in my life. . . and I am so calm and centered. It has to be the SJW.
I am taking 2 3% tabs, to increase if I need it. My question will be. . . with the other antidep.'s I usually have to raise and raise the dosage over a few to several years, until my doc can't raise it more, and I have to switch to something else. Then we start again. . . . so will that be the pattern here? Maybe. But it's okay. . . it's one more option to try. I suspect that if I go into a major funk again one day, I'll need some more powerful stuff again, but after a few years, I'll go back to the SJW for maintenance. . . if all continues this well. WOW.
People, it isn't a placebo. If it is for you. . . your brain chemistry wasn't that off to begin with. I'm sorry . . .that is of course only my opinion based on my experience. But it's many many years of experience with different antidepressants and a lot of study of the mechanics of clinical depression. For me, it's a change in brain chemistry that it very pronounced when I am depressed. . . including not only the feelings thing, but extreme fatigue, other stress- triggered chronic illnesses I have, bad dreams, paranoid thinking, etc. So when there is a definite change for the better, I detect it absolutely.
But again everyone is different. . . it's reassuring to know that at least for some of us, there is definitely something working there.
One more thing. . . . I have the SAME side effects I have had with others . . . esp. Zoloft and Imipramine; namely I'm a bit tired and my mouth is dry. This will wear off in a few weeks I assume. As it always does.
Posts: 2 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Ready to take the St.Johns Wort plunge" , Sun 21 Sep 17:48
Ah! "The best sleep you've had in years" Caught my eye. Hey, if that was the only payoff of SJW I'd be estatic!!! I can count on one hand over the past 10+ years that I've slept deeply and well and woke up with that great cozy feeling of a good night's sleep. I miss it. I will be just starting SJW this next week (3%) as soon as it arrives. (I'm an internet shopping junkie). Your post in regards to your experiences with bipolar depression is very similar to mine, so it has given me some hope that maybe, just maybe SJW may be just what I've needed. Also my BIG Thanks to Kelly for this site!!!!
Posts: 2 | | Registered: Sun 21 Sep 2003 17:30 |
| | |  "Re(2):Bipolar depression"
, Tue 9 Sep 22:11
I'd be interested in seeing if the SJW works for you like the other antidepressants. I've always quit the SJW after a few weeks because I don't feel any antidepressant effects (actually, I feel a lot worse), and I experience side effects from it. Did the pharmaceuticals make you feel worse before you felt better? The three psychiatrists I've been to say I have Bipolar II, but I'm not sure I agree with them. The last doctor told me it was based on family history and on my reaction to my attempts to get on Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, etc. (severe agitation). I do know that I react differently to meds than most other people do.
Posts: 26 | | Registered: Thu 3 Apr 2003 5:33 |
| | | "Re(3):Bipolar depression" , Wed 10 Sep 22:02:
Well, for what it's worth. . . . . . I'll tell you what. I feel GREAT on the SJW. The TYPE of great is definitely antidepressant- induced (i.e. I am not just 'in a good mood' right now).
The only way I can answer is to say that I am having the same reaction as to other antidepressants. I always have initial side effects. . . dry mouth and fatigue. These always take about a month to six weeks to fully wear off. I am a big believer in sticking it out, because in my 20 or so years experience, you have to give it time to work.
As far as emotionally . . . also the same as with others, in particular as with the good experiences. I'll try to explain: bear with me. All of them before were begun either when I was deeply in depression and suicidal (for no explanable reason, mind you), or when I was on one successfully for years and the effectiveness was diminishing (as evidenced in me personally by such things as: paranoid thinking, disturbing/paranoid dreams on a constant nightly basis - suggesting something was up chemically in my body, muddled thinking/confusion, problems sticking to task, problems feeling enthused about my projects or hobbies, no feeling of hope or enthusiasm for the future, avoiding friends and family - unplugging the phone to find 'peace and quiet' , no physical energy, etc.) A good experience with an antidpressant (none of my experiences were bad, just so-so and mildly effective until the dosage was upped, OR a completely new outlook within a few weeks) means to me, taking joy in life again. . . .
I have never experienced one without side effects. I consider this a necessary evil. To be off the drugs is not an acceptible alternative for me, because I deserve a good quality of life, right? I am committed to conquering the illness, not having it conquer me. I have never had sexual side effects. . . I went into them knowing that was possible, and let's just say that what you don't use regularly, you don't keep. I had to take that responsibility and work on it. But that being said, no sexual problems at all for me.
The SJW I would call a great experience. . . several days into it, I have dry mouth, am a bit unsteady on my feet like being mildly intoxicated, am rather fatigued (which is made up for by my sheer JOY at being so centered, and full of life). In fact, I thought the effectiveness of the Paxil had waned sometime in late winter, and have been slow about asking my Dr. to change it back to something else, because I wasn't terribly depressed, just mildly from time to time. Now, I see that I was more depressed than I had realized the past several months, because the contrast of the past week to that is so great. Hope that makes sense.
I want to share something with you also, because you spoke about not staying on the antidep's. This is just from MY life, ok? Wow. . . can't believe I'm going into all this. . .But. . . my mom is sooooo bipolar. Comes straight down that side of the family. She will NOT stay on meds, and as a result she has lost the respect of nearly everyone she loves. She has caused people a LOT of damage through the years. And in her lucid moments she knows that . . . and that, I think must be Hell on Earth. She functions well in the outside world (outside home and family) - no one would believe the monster she becomes. So to not take meds works for her, she doesn't embarrass herself publicly. Know what I mean?
At the same time, she so NEEDs to give meds a chance and she won't. There is always something. . . it makes her feel weird, it makes her tired, . . .and the one I love (she screaming. . . ) "You all just want me to take drugs so I won't feel anything!" - - - ridiculous because antidep's just don't do that. They don't work that way. Period.
PLEASE if you bear any resemblance to her (and if not, forgive the suggestion!) try to give them a serious try. That means more than "a few weeks" or even "several weeks". And accept some side effects on a temporary basis (because to live in constant turmoil and pain is worse, believe me!) You need to give it. . .seriously . . . six months to a year. Take it DAILY and on time. Then decide what it did or didn't do for you, and at least you can know you are being honest with yourself about it. Otherwise, you miss help you could have had to make your life more . . . livable. And even joyous.
If you honestly don't feel help from them, maybe you need to be medicating the mania part of it more. . than the depressive state? Maybe you need to talk to the doc's more about Lithium or something like that? For me the mania is so mild. . . just a few days without sleep, a lot of productivity. I use it to get a lot done at odd hours of the morning! ha ha. I do not : engage in risky behavior, drive myself to dangerous exhaustion, get angry or abusive or rage. (I do go on spending sprees, some of which have caused a lot of trouble for me.)
My mom rages. She gets bitter. She gets resentful. After several days of it, she goes to bed in a depressed state and stays for days without getting up to eat. And this is a woman, mind you. . . WHO WILL NOT STAY ON MEDS long enough to know whethr they can help or not. She gives it like a few months, decides she feels better , and goes off. Bad idea. Or hates initial side effects and doesn't continue long enough to experience good things. . . You need to stay on it for a long time. . . I've read at least a year from most sources. It has to become part of your system's normal habit again, before you can trust your system to kick into an appropriate gear on its own.
In my case, I don't beleive my system CAN kick in on its own. So . . . .maintenance is necessary. That's where the SJW is another option. Not ALTERNATIVE. But option.
The side effects and positive effects of this are so similar to my past experiences of the more traditional antidep's that it has occurred to me again and again the past few days that drugs come from PLANTS, regardless of whether it's 'natural' or 'herbal' or not, or rather more refined in how it's processed. 'Herbal' does not mean 'harmless' regardless of popular myth, nor does 'traditional drug' mean dangerous/useless. They all come from plants. I think the SJW could be really dangerous if not used carefully, like the other drugs. I also think it could be really useful. . . .like so many of THEM. It's an OPTION. I am not convinced it's an ALTERNATIVE. If I fall into a deep downward spin, and the SJW isn't preventing it, believe me, I will be begging for Zoloft with no reservation.
About Bipolar II . . . I have had great doc's. Mostly they know I read and they say, "What kind do you think YOU have?" which is a respectful way to involve a patient, I think. . . . And really, who cares, except that it might determine how you medicate it, and as I said, maybe the antidep's aren't what you need personally at all.
But accept that you need to medicate something, and stick to a plan long enough to be honest about its success or failure. That's my soapbox. Sorry. Of course, if after a week you are like. . . just jumping off buildings. . . don't stay on it! ha ha. My point is be honest about it. . . for your OWN sake.
We all deserve the BEST quality life we can get. We DESERVE it. But it's a thing you have to insist on for yourself. And thank God we live in an age, country or world, where we have these drugs available to us. You know? Thank God we do.
GOD - FORGIVE THE NOVEL!!! SORRY!!! (How manic of me . . ha ha. )
[this message was edited by Sheepy on Wed 10 Sep 22:34]
Posts: 10 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(4):Bipolar depression" , Fri 12 Sep 19:34
Thanks for your awesome (manic) response!
I totally identify with your description of your depression. I've always struggled with depression, but about ten years ago, one more stressful event in my life was like the "straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak. Overnight, I lost my ability to concentrate. I used to be bright, with a sharp memory, but for the last 10 years, I am functioning at a fraction of my normal capacity. I know what you mean about having "muddled thinking/confusion", and having paranoid thoughts, and about not being able to get into hobbies. It's like I've lost the ability to enjoy anything, and my mind is like mud. It's as if a wire got disconnected in my head somewhere, and it just needs to get reconnected somehow. And, I'm feeling hopeless, because ever since my "nervous breakdown" or whatever it was, my condition just seems to get worse, not better. I feel like I will never be the same. I also identify with the dreams you have. I often have dark dreams and thoughts in the middle of the night.
I have been messing around with supplements for the past 8 months, and occasionally, something will REALLY work. The way I feel is like an "awakening". I then realize how very depressed I am when I feel this "cured" feeling. But, everything seems to fizzle out. I guess this would be the closest to "manic" I ever feel, but it's supplement induced. With SJW, I just feel more depressed and hopeless, but that's only 3 weeks into it. I guess I could try to get through the side effects - one of which is pretty bad acne from the stuff, and hair loss. Maybe I could start off with one pill a day, and work my way up to 3. I just wish I didn't feel crappier and crappier the longer I take SJW. I wish I had the positive experiences that people write about here on the forum regarding SJW.
I don't think I'm like your mom. I've done a lot of reading, and yes, my doctors have asked me the same question about what I thought I might have! I have a serious problem with depression, not mania. I tend to be hyper, but not manic. What I need is something that will give me the ability to experience enjoyment in things, and to bring back my concentration and memory so that I can at least function. And, something to help with the dark thoughts.
Thanks again for your response. It is encouraging to see that someone who has felt as I do now was able to break out of the depression.
Posts: 27 | | Registered: Thu 3 Apr 2003 5:33 |
| | | "Re(5):Bipolar depression" , Fri 12 Sep 20:32:
(Not so manic as the last one. Ha ha!)
Wow. . . Wolkig, I wish I were there face to face to reassure you. . . .I believe with all I am that there IS an answer for you. It well may NOT be the SJW. . . but with so many options out there, there IS one.
I have long felt very fortunate that I have such a good and easy time adjusting to antidepressants. I don't know if I am just not so alarmed by the side effects as most people, or if I truly don't have them to the degree others do. . . I have an extremely high pain tolerance and high tolerance to other drugs. . . for instance, if I don't take 600 mg (3 pills) of Tylenol, or Ibuprofen, I may as well forget it, because I need that much for it to affect me at all.
I know that people just have a heck of a time with the antidep's and adjusting. I still feel though that you have to give them a little time. . . .several months, to work on the emotional angle. . . . .but geez, if you are having really unbearable side effects . . .like severe acne. . . I don't know if I would stay on it either.
I can't stess enough. . . just my humble opinion. . . that it's important to have great docs in your corner, AND to be an active participant in your own health treatment. This is my educated opinion: I worked for years in social work, with people with disabilities and parents of kids with disabilities. You have to DEMAND that a physician help you find a treatment that works for you. You have to EXPECT them to . . . after all you are their client. . . you are paying them money to solve your problem. . . it's an attitude that will get you the help you need, with ANY health issue.
To that end. . . .just a suggestion. . . you write very well, and clearly. Why don't you take the post you just wrote to me. . . copy it and take it with you to your next appt. Sit there until they read it, in its entirety. When you are just talking about your symptoms to a doc, if you are like me you get a little flustered, you feel rushed, you forget to mention things, etc. That post is so well written, and for me it really describes your anguish and frustration and why you feel that way. If they don't get how frustrated and how desperate you are to find an answer, they will after reading that. It's a tool!
You will be in my thoughts for a long time. You need and deserve to find a way to better your quality of life. And the fact that you are posting here, and searching around for an answer, says that you are NOT a quitter, and you are active in trying to solve your problem. Keep it up, and I know you will find the answer.
So my advice for what it's worth. . . give things a good, reasonable try. But if you know they aren't working, be aggressive about making it clear to your psychiatrist (and that is the kind of doc who can BEST help with medicines) that you MUST find a solution NOW. Period.
As for the SJW. . . it is not my experience personally that I feel worse on any antidep. before I feel better. I may feel worse physically with side effects. . . but emotionally I NEVER feel worse before better. I would be curious how others here answer that for you. For me feeling icky physically for awhile is okay as long as it's temporary, just so I feel better eventually emotionally. If a drug was making me feel WORSE emotionally . .. hmmm .. . .I don't know if I'd stay on it.
I find it encouraging for your sake that you have had those moments of light. . . where you know how you should be feeling. That spark of life's joy - which we all deserve to be well acquainted with on at least an occasional basis. Sounds like you pay a high price for those moments, and that isn't fair. I'm so sorry. On the other hand. . . you did feel those moments of light, so your brain is capable of going there. . . know what I mean? Now. . . how do you get it to do it more often?
One more thing I want to mention. . . . I had a sort of Eureka! moment when I saw the film A Beautiful Mind. Although the protagonist is dealing with a different type of mental illness, the thing that gets me is that at a point he had to sink or start swimming, and it had to come from HIM. He talks about learning to control the hallucinations from taking over his life, etc. I was really inspired by the idea that his improvement came from a lot of medical intervention. . . but it also came from his decision about the quality of life he wanted. He was really in the end an active participant in his path back to health. Wow.
I want to tell you that I felt bad physically for many years, and a lot of it was the depression I think. . . . . the same things you describe. . . .confusion etc. I was so moved reading your post because you say you USED to be so sharp. I felt the same way. I felt, at about 35, and with a college degree already, that my mind would never be as quick and sharp as it was. I mourned that terribly. BUT now, at 42 I am enrolled to start grad school in Feb. I'll tell you what. . . if I have to study twice as hard now, if I am not as quick as I was. .. . that is so sad for me, and for the gods, but it's okay. I can do good and successful things. . . I am capable, just maybe in a different way. And that's okay. My quality of life can be huge if I go get it by the horns.. . . ., or I can just get caught up in mourning the losses, and let it eat me up.
I can remember days about 10 years ago, when I finally had to stop working because of my confusion, etc. I left a career I loved. There were days when I couldn't add two and two, LITERALLY. I remember pulling off the road on the way home - I lived 10 mi from my work - because I suddenly couldn't remember how to go home. I remember looking at other cars to see what they did, because I couldn't remember what traffic light colors meant. . (Does green mean GO? uh oh.) Sound familiar??? I so understand where you are. . . I could never adequately explain to people how terrible and frightening it is to realize you are losing actual intelligence.
But now I am excited about re-entering the work world, going to school. I figure you have to exercise a good brain like a muscle. . .this one has had some hard blows, and gotten a little slow. I intend to exercise it again! I think it's improving. We'll see how it goes.
Finally, a quote (from Russell Crowe's song, "The Night Davy Hit the Train" about a friend's suicide, his own contemplation of such, and choosing life and courage) . . . .
"Taking everything that comes down.
Falling out of the sky. . . .
There's NO malice in the weather. . . "
(That is my mantra at the darkest times. . . there is no malice in the weather. . .)
Yep, there is no malice in the weather, and **** does fall from the sky . . . take it and choose to live with bravery regardless. That is the way. That is the way.
God Bless.
[this message was edited by Sheepy on Fri 12 Sep 21:41]
Posts: 12 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(6):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 05:44
Thanks again for your response! I can't believe how much I can relate to your experience with depression.
My "crash" came when I went back to school at 26 to get my Bachelor's degree. This is how I usually describe what happened to me: It's like I'm a bridge, and the stressful things I experienced are like vehicles on the bridge. Some of the things I experienced were traumatic, like a jumbo jet. Then, there have been a lot of very heavy semi trucks that have gone onto the bridge. Going back to school was like a car going onto the bridge. But, even though it was only a car, the weight limit of the bridge was exceeded; the bridge collapsed. I had another year to finish school, and in order to accomplish this, I would bring a cassette recorder to my important classes. When I would later listen to my tapes and take notes, I was amazed at how I missed just about everything in the lecture; it was as if I wasn't even in attendance at the class!
I graduated at 27, and worked as a computer programmer for 9 years. It was such a struggle, that I finally quit my job a year ago. The bridge never got repaired - the wire in my brain never got reconnected. After a year off, I now just started working again, but it's at 1/4 the pay I was making before. My intentions are to get better emotionally, and to use this job as a foot in the door to getting back into my career. It's such a bummer to have worked so hard to get educated, but now I'm punching a clock in a clerical position.
I, too, have mourned the loss of the way I used to be. Early on, concentration was never an issue. If I was watching a movie, the dialogues would effortlessly be processed by my brain, and I would understand what was going on. Now, if someone is talking, it's as if the words bounce off my head; they just can't be processed by my brain. It's like being in the lectures at school - things will be said, but it's as if I wasn't there to hear what was said.
And, the inability to feel pleasure from things obviously makes life very difficult. Sometimes I feel so hopeless.
I worked with a counselor recently who had me writing out my life experiences from as far back as I can remember. Putting things in writing helped me to see things in a new perspective, and it really helped him to understand my experiences better. I can see where writing out something for a psychiatrist would be a benefit, since it gives me a chance to get more organized in what I am trying to communicate.
What you said about the fact that I have felt "those moments of light, so my brain is capable of going there", was really encouraging to me. I have usually felt even more hopeless after experiencing the tease of a "cured" state. When I crash back into the depression, it's even worse, because I know how life could be (and how others experience it), and how so messed up my brain chemistry is. But, if my brain can be "repaired", even for a short time, there probably is something that could affect my chemistry more consistently.
I guess I really should try to find a good psych doctor. I went to one last summer who studied brain scans. He wanted me to first be on the mood stabilizer Lamictal, and then put me on Effexor. The Lamictal is supposed to prevent the severe agitation brought on by antidepressants. But, hair loss is a side effect (like most other mood stabilizers). Unfortunately, I've struggled with eating disorders for as far back as I can remember, and tend to obsess about my "flaws", and imperfections. I'm paranoid of side effects that affect my appearance because of the body image thing. But, even if my hair falls out, and I gain weight, maybe the drugs would be strong enough to make me happy, anyway!
The doctor said I had symptoms of untreated Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (partially due to the fact that my mom has no maternal instinct due to "excessive dopamine levels"), and that I have Major Depression. Since as far back as I can remember, which would probably be about 3 years old, I have experienced these waves of massive depression that come unexpectedly, and apparently unrelated to what I'm experiencing at any given moment. These episodes only last for a couple of minutes, and then go away. All I feel is that I don't want to live. I feel almost physically sick in my stomach. And then, the feeling goes away. So, I think that I have inherited some brain chemistry issues, and then, with all of the childhood abuse, neglect, etc., it has REALLY made a mess out of the ol' brain chemistry.
Well, I guess it was my turn to have a manic, novel writing episode! I guess I'm so excited to find someone who can actual relate to what I am going through.
Thanks for your help!
Posts: 28 | | Registered: Thu 3 Apr 2003 5:33 |
| | | "Re(7):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 10:27
Wolkig, I am so glad I am able to share something that clicks for you. . . and maybe our conversation is helping someone else.
I also had a major crisis throw me into a spin. . . I had a life-threatening illness, had three major surgeries and a minor one, within 3 years; that changes you, believe me! As my physical health plummeted it became very difficult to control the depression I had previously dealt with successfully through meds. My whole system just collasped to such an extent, that my endocrinological system went haywire (that's all hormones in your body, not just sexual, but thyroid, etc.) For example, my thyroid literally died - mind you I was only 32 or so - - and I had both ovaries removed due to disease. BOTH. Instant cutting off your hormonal balance. Overnight menopause. Just begging for a depressive episode! My docs were rushing around just trying to keep me alive physically long enough to get stuff under control again. I continued working full time for about the first two years of that. . .then was forced to quit after I couldn't function mentally. I resigned and went on disabiilty . . . I was afraid if I kept working I would make a huge mistake one day with something, and hurt my career.
Anyway, my training was primarily in crisis counseling and in organizing and training volunteer networks for peer counseling. I tell you this because I want you to know this background. . . .some of my advice is actually educated opinion! For what it's worth. . . .
Again, while reading your most recent post, I am struck by a glimmer of wanting to find an answer. That is so encouraging . . . in my experience, people with that glimmer are the ones who came back to ME years later and said, "Look! I DID it!" Not all people in your situation are like this. . . .in fact many aren't. It seems that some people are at a point in their life - - God love them - - where for some reason they are invested in not being better. They will plant their feet and refuse to even entertain a possible solution seriously . . .not because they have honestly examined it and feel it won't work for them, but because they are just quite comfy where they are. Know what I mean? That's ok for them. . .but it makes it impossible to help them as a friend or counselor or doc or anyone, because although they want to feel different and want life to be better, they aren't ready or willing to be active about seeing that happen. I hope that makes sense. YOU on the other hand, give concrete reasons why things haven't worked. . .and you have that wonderful active attitude toward keeping up the fight. You really do, whether you hear it or not.
Here is an example in your post - (I cheered when I read it - scared my dogs! ha ha) -
" But, even if my hair falls out, and I gain weight, maybe the drugs would be strong enough to make me happy, anyway!"
YES EXACTLY!!! I had the hair thing, the weight thing, etc. In college and through my twenties, I was really cute. . .sorry but I was! The whole crash came at 31 or so.. . . and everything changed. I have obsessed about looks too . .. and this is what I notice. . .that happy people (I don't mean smiley smiley I'm so happy - - - I mean centered, at peace, fulfilled) have a kind of glow about them that people are drawn to. I think we are drawn to what we feel safe with , are inspired by, learn from. That draw is so much bigger than looks. And that draw I couldn't hope to achieve without mental health. I want to attract people for THOSE reasons. The looks would be great too - ha! - but oh well. Interesting though, at 42 my hair is returning slowly, and my weight is dropping slowly . . . I looked at myself in the mirror recently and thought. . . hmmm. . .. I look a lot better than 5 years ago. Friends notice it too. . . I think it's because I am starting to get that glow. After A LOT of WORK!!!!
Here is another example from your post, of your fight nature!:
" . . . . But, if my brain can be "repaired", even for a short time, there probably is something that could affect my chemistry more consistently." Absolutely true. You got it. Now to FIND IT.
And another:
" . . .I can see where writing out something for a psychiatrist would be a benefit, since it gives me a chance to get more organized in what I am trying to communicate." So . .. you are intending to be an active participant once again in your health. Good! You always get back on the horse, Wolkig. . . do you see that? A lot of people fail to. Seems you have many a time.. . .
A few things I wanted to comment on for what it's worth to you. First. . . you said, "So, I think that I have inherited some brain chemistry issues, and then, with all of the childhood abuse, neglect, etc., it has REALLY made a mess out of the ol' brain chemistry."
I can so relate. I think I inherited the tendency toward severe depression (I do mean I inherited a chemical imbalance. Not just a tendency to be melancholy. I leave that to the poets. Real depression means you couldn't write if you wanted to. ), and that the abuse I received in childhood on a constant basis, just beat me down until depression was an ongoing curse for me. My mom sounds like yours. . .unresolved and untreated BIG issues with brain chemistry. She took it out on me. (Typical. . . one child is scapegoated over others, usually the oldest child - - - that statistic helped me a lot not to feel 'crazy' ). It made a permanent mess of my brain chemistry.
I have come to believe that a person dealing with serious depression needs a psychiatrist first, not a psychologist, not a family doctor, not a minister, not a counselor. A psychiatrist. Here's why: a psychiatrist is an MD just like your general practioner doctor. BUT he or she has had in addition to all that training, training specifically in mental illness patterns and medication related to those. In other words he is specifically trained to find the right med or meds to get you centered. Get thee to a psychiatrist People!!!
AFTER your psychiatrist has gotten you to a point where you feel better every day, then you can look into working on the other issues, with the above professional of your choice. And good for you. But how can you begin that work if your brain cannot reason, you can't organize your thinking, and all your energy is going into just staying alive? Seems a waste of time to me at least, and at worst a dangerous delay toward getting real help.
Don't get me wrong. I worked as a crisis counselor!! They are great help. Other such professionals and doctors are very valuable. But not until your brain is centered and calm enough and well enough to hear them, and learn from them. It's that simple. Only your PSYCHIATRIST can do that part.
Sometimes, your medical doc/family doc/ general practitioner will put you on an antidepressent, and get lucky when it turns out to be what you needed. Great. .. they are open enough to entertain the idea that you need chemical intervention with your brain! But they do not have the additional training beyond the medical degree that your psychiatrist does, specifically in medicating such things. See the difference?
Also, psyCHOLOgists, as opposed to psychiatrists, are simply people trained in human behavior and counseling. They have little or NO medical training. They are not doctors. (If their title has a PH.D. in Psychology - they are not medical doctors. They have a "Doctor in Philosophy" in their chosen field. Whether music, psychology, or professional puppetmaking, a PHD is NOT a medical doc, although people with that title wish to and deserve to be called "Doctor". They paid for that respect with some 8-9 years of schooling in whatever their field was. BUT they are not a medical doc. There is only one title for a doctor of medicine. . .that is MD.) Some psychologists are talented, talented counselors! They can help a great deal, AFTER you have dealt with the brain chemistry imbalance so that you are willing and able to work on life issues.
You may find, like I did, that after the brain chemistry was dealt with, I didn't need much of the counseling. To my surprise, I had worked through a lot of that garbage myself. I was able to put it in perspective, put it behind me, decide that the only way the years of abuse could win, is if I let it by obsessing about it, and letting it drive my decisions and choices in life. I decided I WOULD WIN instead.
Now. . . here is the rub: the only time the past jumps up and bites me, and knocks me down, is when my brain chemistry is already unstable (like when I have started to experience the symptoms telling me I need to switch to a new med, or have the dosage adjusted). Otherwise, it is always smaller than I am now, not bigger. It will always be there, it's part of my history and makeup, but it made me tough. I USED IT, it doesn't use me.
The one other thing. . . .you said,
"I guess I really should try to find a good psych doctor. I went to one last summer who studied brain scans. He wanted me to first be on the mood stabilizer Lamictal, and then put me on Effexor. The Lamictal is supposed to prevent the severe agitation brought on by antidepressants."
You need to listen to that man. He knows that you can't tolerate the antidepressants without the mood-stabilizer. He knows it. You need to know it too. The antidepressants can't work until you have already let him lay the groundwork. He has about 6 yrs of training beyond you and I, about 2-3 beyond your doctor, about 2-5 beyond your average psychologist.. . . . and God knows how much experience, plus he devotes his life's work to studying people like you. Now, why on earth are you NOT in his office with these posts in hand? Hair loss???
How important is you life quality to you? It has more to do with your hair and weight. . .as you know. Get the brain workng right again, then you will be able to see clearly enough and be strong enough to deal with the appearance stuff that goes awry in the process. Again, just my opinion.
Here's something to look forward to. . . . manic depression can be quite interesting and a bit of a gift. In many cases it comes hand in hand with great creativity, drive and success, that others are not capable of. I can recommend books! Ha ha. In order to make the horrible curse a gift for your life. . . you need to learn to control IT, not the other way around.
So, again, take the bull by the horns. Decide enough is enough. Get what you NEED, not what is convenient in little temporary ways. . . . Demand better life quality from yourself and your docs.
Wolkig, you are so on that path. . . now stay there, and finish this!! Around the corner are good happy years. . . I KNOW it.
S.
Posts: 12 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(8):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 22:41
Yeah, I guess the hair loss thing sounds pretty trivial. But these things are pretty ingrained. And, I've been groomed from early on to not get "fat just like your mother", hence the anorexia and any other means to stay thin and "amount to something". I really got messed up again into the body image thing after my husband (now ex) abandoned our relationship for pictures of women in magazines, if you know what I mean. So now, I really have this distrust of men, and I'm so afraid that my current boyfriend would reject me somehow, even if "just" mentally, if I gained weight or lost my hair. And, a lot of times this is the theme of my paranoid thoughts. This stupid fear of rejection has a pretty nasty stronghold.
But, when I'm in that "cured" state, I could really give a rat's heiny what anyone thinks. It's truly a great feeling. I agree with you about the being treated by the psychiatrist first, because when I am in that "awakened" state, all the dark, crappy thoughts are a non-issue. When one pops into my head during these times, I effortlessly dismiss the thought - I'm amazed that I actually have worried about such stupid crap! But, you know how it is when the brain isn't working correctly. It's as if I've stayed up 3 days straight drinking beer, and I'm expected to act normal. Well, my brain is intoxicated on depression, and it just isn't working properly.
Well, I'm trying one last ditch effort with some supplements per LOOPS' post, "alpha-lipoic acid/insulin resistance", and I'm getting some good results at the moment. Actually, I'm rather amazed at what I'm experiencing, much like LOOPS' experience so far. My mood is better, and my blood sugar seems to be much more stabilized. I'm waiting to see if the good results continue.
I have moved several states away from the doctor I saw last summer, so I will have to find one where I'm currently living.
Thanks again for your response, and for your help. It's cool to know that someone out there cares.
Posts: 29 | | Registered: Thu 3 Apr 2003 5:33 |
| | | "Re(9):Bipolar depression" , Sun 14 Sep 09:52
I am SO happy you have found something that is working for now! If it can give you back even 2 mo of clear thinking that is good time to regain some control and confidence for the next battle. If there is one.
I have a feeling battles for you are going to get smaller and smaller. . . your attitude is just great in my opinion!
I am glad you've "heard" what I was trying to say. What I left out (purposely to make a point) is that hair and body image ARE important. But as you say, when you are sliding downhill in the mess of imbalanced brain chemistry, you have to put them in the back seat. When you are in control of your brain and your destiny again, obsess about body image and have FUN with it. That's what I say.
I'm having a ball lately. I find myself between clothing styles. I am not "old folks" style as my teenaged goddaughter puts it. But I don't want to dress like a teenager either. I've earned 42 years, dammit! So I'm having fun finding a funky middle ground. I wouldn't care if I were in a depression. . .. just one more bit of the fun of life it would have robbed me of.
I wish you ALL the best!!
S.
Posts: 15 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(5):Bipolar depression" , Fri 12 Sep 20:01
Posts: 10 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(2):Bipolar depression" , Tue 9 Sep 20:12
Yes, this is an awesome herb. I have experienced phenomenal results as well. I am so happy now ... and as in your case, my new found joy is having a devistating effect on my relationships.
Posts: 9 | | Registered: Mon 18 Aug 2003 14:41 |
| | | "Re(3):Bipolar depression" , Tue 9 Sep 20:26
" . . .. and as in your case, my new found joy is having a devistating effect on my relationships"
Willy, I hope you meant this as you typed it, because you crack me up! (If you didn't mean it to be ironic, fake it, because it was quite witty. :) )
It's having a devastating effect on my ex and on my parents. . . who all are furious they can't just send me spinning at will. They jump around acting manipulative, and I am soooo calmmmm and crystal clear and centered about it all. It is so great.
Cheers.
Posts: 6 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(4):Bipolar depression" , Wed 10 Sep 13:45
Sometimes the absolute horror of the realization that my closest companions depend on my depression for their emotional maintanence is so rancid that to laugh about it is the only solace :) ):
Posts: 11 | | Registered: Mon 18 Aug 2003 14:41 |
| | | "Re(5):Bipolar depression" , Wed 10 Sep 21:17
LOL. . . . isn't that our purpose in life? To exist so that they can feel sane? It's so . . . . noble.
Posts: 7 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(6):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 12:03
Gosh, I never looked at it like that. Thank you Sheepy. Don't I feel sheepish...
Posts: 19 | | Registered: Mon 18 Aug 2003 14:41 |
| | | "Re(7):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 13:07
You crack me up, Willy.! I feel sheepish a lot, slogging around in sheep doo doo with the dogs. Lordy. hehe But it's a good life. . .
Posts: 14 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(6):Bipolar depression" , Wed 10 Sep 22:26
It's official People. Just reread my posts. . . One more side effect on the SJW. . . I cannot spell suddenly. Typos galore. Hmmm . .. . very disturbing. (Or maybe that's distubbing?)
Posts: 9 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | | "Re(7):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 12:04:
One time I was at Barnes and Noble special ordering a book and I completely forgot to spell too. How odd. Not a permanent phenomenon though...I think...how's my spelling?
[this message was edited by willy on Sat 13 Sep 12:05]
Posts: 21 | | Registered: Mon 18 Aug 2003 14:41 |
| | | "Re(8):Bipolar depression" , Sat 13 Sep 13:03
Yep. . . it's the damn SJW! Now we can't spell. (Although I see YOU have edited BEFORE hitting the post button! hehe
Posts: 13 | | Registered: Fri 5 Sep 2003 22:34 |
| | |  "re: bi polar"
, Sun 21 Sep 18:17
You two have such a grand post going here I hate to interrupt..but what is this with hair loss and "mood stablizers???" What drug/s are considered "Mood Stablizers"???? I dunno how to address the hair loss thingie right out here on the boards....so are we talking hair regardless of 'placement' or that which garnishes our noggins???
It's not the vanity thingie, it's wondering what I thought was perhaps a hormonal flucuation thing, that might actually be due to the meds I'm taking.
OMG! The spelling...you mean it's not just due to brain cell loss?
I used to be a sharp speller and now the dictionary or spell check is a constant.
lol I didn't know whether to put a question mark or a red face on this post!!!
Posts: 3 | | Registered: Sun 21 Sep 2003 17:30 |
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