Topic Title: Organic SJW
| |  "Organic SJW"
, Tue 13 May 19:29
I was in the supermarket today when the Sage Organic brand of SJW caught my eye. I try to buy organically produced food as much as possible, so I was intrigued. When I had a closer look the dosage information proved to be bizarre. The capsules were to be taken twice a day and if I remember correctly each capsule contained 700 mg of organically produced SJW, which is presumably just raw herb, and only 100 mg of extract. I don't think they even claimed it to be standardised extract. The really strange thing was they claimed that each capsule "typically provides" 930 mcg of hypericin and 15 mg of hyperforin. If it isn't a standardised extract I can't help wondering how they can make this claim, even with that "typically" in there. Unfortunately I couldn't find any more info by searching the internet, so I'd have to actually buy a box to find out more.
I'm prepared to believe their claim that herbs benefit from being organically produced, but if they're not standardised then you never know exactly what you're getting - they could prove to be useless.
Anyone else know more about this brand, or have any comments?
Dan
Posts: 177 | | Registered: Sat 14 Dec 2002 17:8 |
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| | "Re(1):Organic SJW" , Wed 14 May 06:07
This must be the one, yes?
http://www.sageorganic.com/products/sjw_hs_additional.htm
Frankly, I don't believe the claim they are making for a second. I have never heard of an extract that concentrated hypericin and hyperforin to 1% and 15% respectively. It's an outrageous claim.
I've probably said it before, but SJW powder is worthless in therapeutic terms. It's worse than crushed herb. It is just there in place of lactose or cellulose or whatever other filler crud they use in capsules. It's sad that the "organic" aspect of the product relates to the inactive portion. By omission, once can only assume that the extract is not certified organic (one assumes they source it from the usual phytomedicine suppliers).
Even their FAQ page contains outrageous claims, like this one:
"As St John’s Wort has a cleansing action on the liver, it can effect the metabolism of prescribed medication and hence effect the way in which it works."
This is untrue. Hyperforin induces cytochrome P450, which can result in a lowering of serum levels for some drugs e.g. warfarin.
Epyx
Posts: 555 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(2):Organic SJW" , Wed 14 May 18:11
Thanks for the link. I wonder why Google didn't find that for me yesterday...
There didn't seem to be any evidence that they do their own testing to establish hypericin and hyperforin levels, and 100 mg of extract isn't going to provide what they claim, so they must be assuming that the 700 mg of SJW powder contains some hypericin and hyperforin.
As you say, it's a shame that the 700 mg of powder - which meets the Soil Association's high organic standards - is pretty much worthless, while the 100 mg of extract isn't certified organic at all. Perhaps the extraction methods used would prevent any extract from being certified organic, but it would be nice (from my point of view) to see a standardised extract that came from organically grown plants.
Dan
Posts: 179 | | Registered: Sat 14 Dec 2002 17:8 |
| | | "Re(3):Organic SJW" , Thu 15 May 05:59
Yeah. No reason why organic extract can't be produced, but I imagine that the extract only comes from large manufacturers who don't have any interest in a niche product.
For what it's worth, I decided take the questions we raised here and posed them to Sage Organics. I'm not expecting a reply 
Epyx
Posts: 559 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(4):Organic SJW" , Sat 17 May 23:31
Well, I'm going to have to eat my own words Sage Organics got back to me and gave me a very generous reply. I hope they won't mind me publishing the info, but I feel I owe it to them as it is effectively their right of reply in this thread:
"Thank you for your queries and comments, dated 14th May, concerning our St John's Wort High Strength (SJWHS) product which you noticed recently at a supermarket. We are pleased that you should take such an informed technical interest in one of our products.
The organic status of the product is determined by compliance with the requirements of Section 1.06.09 of the" Soil Association standards for organic farming and production" (reflecting the equivalent requirements of Provision 5 of the UK Register of Organic Food Standards (UKROFS)). This covers products with 70 - 95 percent organic ingredients and states that:
"A product cannot be labelled as 'organic' but may be labelled as containing a specified percentage of organic ingredients where: a. At least 70 percent of the agricultural ingredients are organic……."
Non-organic components of agricultural origin, ie the extract and cellulose capsule, are covered by Section 8.03.23 which permits operators to seek authorisation for a derogation to use products (ingredients) not listed in 8.03.20 to 8.03.22 by providing "evidence showing that the ingredient concerned is not available as organic in sufficient quantity either in the EU or imported".
The product is, therefore, not marketed as "Organic St John's Wort" (this would require 95% or more organic content) but as a product containing organic agricultural ingredient. The product is marketed under the brand name of our subsidiary company "Sage Organic Ltd".
Regulation 1.06.09 (g) also states that: " The ingredients (must) appear in descending order by weight in the list of ingredients" This is regardless of efficacy or of "actives" content and is based only on weight. Thus the dry herb in our product is listed as a 'primary ingredient' because it is 70% of the product! Your assertion that the powdered SJW is just a filler, however, ignores the fact that the herb, even in dried form, is the primary source of all the actives including hypericin, pseudohypericin, hyperforin and many others. We specify and subject our raw materials to HPLC analysis. The dry herb, for example, typically contains more than 0.11% total hypericin thus contributing 770mcg to the claimed daily dose of up to 930mcg.
The dried, hydro-alcoholic extract is supplied to a specification of 0.3% hypericin and 3% hyperforin thus providing 300mcg and 3mg respectively. We specify a level of 1.5% hyperforin in the herb which, together with the 3% in the extract, gives a total of up to 15mg per daily dose. Our use of the term "up to" is pragmatic and recognises the instability particularly of hyperforin, a prenylated phloroglucinol. There is also doubt concerning the effectiveness of hydro-alcoholic solvent extraction of hyperforin from plant material (perhaps explaining the 1/3rd level you quote in commercial extracts?). CO2 extraction may be more efficient (Muller et al cited in Chevallier,1999) and we will be asking our analysts to consider this in preparing samples for HPLC.
As you know, there are many dose forms of medicinal herbs and their extracts. The extract manufacturers have a vested interest in hypericin-standardised extracts and these, being commonly available, have formed the basis of the majority of reported trials. Chevallier points out, however, that hypericin may not be the best marker of efficacy as the "herb as a whole has greater antidepressant activity than any one of its active constituents". He also cites Buter et al, 1998 who claim that "good quality dried St John's Wort may prove superior to standardised extracts". In Chapters 7 and 8 he gives examples of the dried herb used in various herbal combinations and he gives a standard recommended dose of 2-4g per day of dried powder taken in capsules with water. Other authors (eg Barnes et al, 2002) refer to a dosage of 2-4g of dried herb
per day.
I hope that this sheds some light on the issues raised by your queries and I assure you that we are determined to continue to ensure that our raw materials and our products are of the finest, verifiable quality."
References:
Chevallier A, (1999) St John's Wort : The Natural Antidepressant and More. Nature's Remedies Series. North Atlantic Books, Berkley, California.
Barnes J, Anderson L A, and Phillipson J D, (2002) Herbal Medicines. 2nd Edn.
Pharmaceutical Press, London
I will ask more about their hyperforin testing in the powder content, but it's an interesting reply. I will paste in any further correspondence I receive from them.
Epyx
Posts: 562 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(5):Organic SJW" , Mon 19 May 19:39
Thanks for going to the trouble of corresponding with Sage Organic and posting their reply here. They make some interesting points. I'm no expert, so I have no way of telling how much faith to put in the references they cite, but I'm inclined to believe their claim that the whole herb is more effective than any one of its active constituents. Unfortunately, this creates a dilemma. Standardised extracts deliver a certain amount of the best markers currently known, but these may not actually be the best markers - the widespread use of hypericin as a marker demonstrates this. Also, the fact that SJW has been shown to have weak MAOI effects in vitro but is no longer thought to work as an MAOI in the body demonstrates to me the large gap between finding a mechanism or active ingredient in the test tube and showing that the herb actually works this way in the body. On the other hand, the whole herb may have the potential to be more effective than any of its active constituents alone, but the effectiveness could vary wildly from batch to batch depending on all sorts of factors. It can still be tested to see how much of the known active constituents it contains, but it seems to me that quality control could be a bigger problem than it is for extracts. I'd be very interested to hear about the hyperforin testing they do on the powder, to see how they deal with this issue.
It's encouraging that they do test the powder - I very unfairly jumped to the opposite conclusion in my previous post. And it was interesting to see their figures for the levels of hypericin and hyperforin in the powdered herb - not as high as in standardised extract, for obvious reasons, but still significant. If they are correct, it suggests that products that contain SJW powder have the potential to be effective, but the dose would need to be much higher than that for extracts. Yet products that contain the powder often suggest the same 900 mg dose or less (Sage Organic's suggested dose only contains 700 mg of powder and 100 mg of extract).
Solgar have attempted to get round the extract vs. whole herb dilemma I refer to by producing products that contain both, and marketing them as being the best of both worlds. I've decided to do a little experiment along these lines. I bought a box of Sage Organic SJW today and for at least the next 20 days I'm going to combine one 450 mg tablet of Kira (of which I have a lot) with three capsules of Sage Organic. If their figures are correct, and if the figures Lichtwer Pharma gave me for the Kira are also correct, this should give me at least the same amounts of hypericin and hyperforin as the 900 mg of Kira I'm taking. I haven't been feeling that great recently, and I've been thinking of making a change of some sort, so it seems like a good time to test the effect of this sort of combination. I'll let you know what happens.
Dan
Posts: 183 | | Registered: Sat 14 Dec 2002 17:8 |
| | | "Re(6):Organic SJW" , Fri 23 May 16:44
I'm interested to see how you go with your experiment, Daniel! I'm too reluctant to switch brands these days.
I haven't had a chance to write back to Sage Organics yet, but there is something they didn't really address. Their website attributes the hyperforin content to the extract, not the powder. This could just be a typo, but it was what started us both on this path in the first place.
Regarding the references: these are not really great references to be honest. Most of the really good studies into hyperforin and its extraction were conducted by Chatterjee around 1998. The references given appear to be pop-sci stuff.
While I like the idea of some kind of synergistic effect within the whole herb, my beliefs about SJW are driven by observations made through clinical trials. The lack of whole herb trials means that it is us consumers who will ultimately have to answer the question through inexact means and anecdote.
I also have my doubts about the viability of hyperforin content in SJW powder, but I will see what Sage has to say and paste their reply here in turn.
Epyx
Posts: 566 | | Registered: Mon 3 Dec 2001 22:11 |
| | | "Re(7):Organic SJW" , Sat 24 May 07:42
What I've noticed so far (after only four days) is that I'm getting all the side effects I got when I first started SJW - mainly fatigue, but occasionally restlessness, mild anxiety, and slight dizziness. Or perhaps this is because I've actually decreased my dose (from 900 mg to 600 mg of extract). I think it's too early to tell what effect combining the two brands is having on my mood, though I certainly don't feel any worse.
If this doesn't work I will be looking for a new brand in the long term. I was doing great for a few months with Kira, but lately (the last month or so) it doesn't seem to be working so well. It didn't always seem to be consistent before in fact. I know it's unreasonable to expect to feel good all the time, but I'm hoping that a different brand will be more consistent, and at the same time cost much less than Kira (which is outrageously expensive in the UK - that's why I bought quite a lot before moving back here).
Dan
Posts: 187 | | Registered: Sat 14 Dec 2002 17:8 |
| | | "Re(8):Organic SJW" , Thu 5 Jun 17:06
I'm near the end of the 20 days I decided to allow for this combination and I can't say that I feel much different either way. Adding the Sage Organics brand did give me a boost to start with, and since then I've been feeling just the same as I did before, perhaps marginally better. Anyway, I think this means one of two things:
a) The Sage Organics are just as effective (for me) as the Kira.
b) Lowering my dose (from 900 mg of extract to 600 mg) has not had any negative effects.
I think the reason why it seemed like the Kira was not as effective as before is that I was comparing with the time when it started to have its effect. I felt really good then because it was such a relief when the depression finally lifted. Comparing with how I felt in October and November, before I started taking SJW, I can see that I'm doing much better now. When I feel down it's usually just because I'm having a bad day - it's not coming from within me any more. Even when I do have a bad day, I don't overreact to it like I might have done before. So I've decided to go back to 900 mg of Kira until I finish it off (there's still quite a lot left) and then think about trying something else.
Dan
Posts: 194 | | Registered: Sat 14 Dec 2002 17:8 |
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