neurotransmitter testing

[grimesfrank]

I've been reading a lot about neurotransmitter testing lately and was wondering if anyone had any experience wtih it.
Is it useless or is it possible that it could accurately detect what is missing in a depressed persons brain chemistry?

I can imagine asking my regular doctor about it and hearing him tell me how it's a bunch of hoopla like a lot of new miracle treatments you read about.

It could be something new still and hasn't gained a lot of respect yet and might take a few years to catch on in the medical world.
I don't know if insurance would cover it or not or if a family doctor would even order the tests to be done.

If anyone has any information on it or can answer any of these questions that would be much appreciated.

[Warrior]

Hi there, I was thinking the same thing myself. It would be really awesome if you could know what levels your main neurotransmitters were working at. (0%, 25%, 50%)


B/c one person's depression maybe more a lack of Serontonin, while another might be more a lack of dopamine...(I think mine is more of this)

That's why I'm about to try Rhodiola Rosea.

The Opioids and Gaba are 2 other main neurotransmitters.

Its amazing that some of these brain chemicals can become almost totally depleted during high stress/depressionionary episodes.

Treatment solutions would be greatly enhanced if we could hone in on the reason for variances between different depressions in different people.

I bet they have a test somewhere....but the general public just doesn't know about it.

[ratboy83]

there is a simple way but its not gonna give really precise results. as a way of determining whether you're more lacking in dopamine/ noradrenaline or serotonin you can moniter the effects of certain foods on the way you feel. its all to with neutral amino acids competing to pass over the blood brain barrier and the action of the hormone insulin. six amino acids compete with each other to pass over the blood brain barrier: L-tryptophan, L-phennylaline, L-tyrosine, L-valine, L-leucine, L-isoleucine. normally L-tryptophan hasn't got much of a chance as its consumed in very small amounts in the diet (only 1% of the amino acid content in protein foods is L-tryptophan) and has 5 other big boys to compete against. so, without any help, the other amino acids tend to pass the blood brain barrier instead and since L-tyrosine and L-phennylaline are precursors to dopamine and noradrenaline, the levels of those two neurotransmitters are raised in the brain. this effect is most pronounced when you eat just protein and no carbs, i.e. a chicken breast by itself. even though the chicken contains L-tryptophan in a good amount, it also contains the other 5 amino acids in LARGER amounts, so the tryptophan can't be readily utilised. so if you feel better after a high protein meal and low carb meal, then the chances are you are more lacking in dopamine and noradrenaline than serotonin.
the picture cahnges though when carbs are included in the equation. carbs cause a release of insulin which has the effect of clearing out of the blood stream the other 5 amino acids competeting with L-tryptophan to get into the brain, so its left by itself to enter the without the big boys to stop it. so if you feel better after a meal high in carbs but noi more than medium level of protien then you're more lacking in serotonin.


alex.

[maudlin]

Hi there,
There is a lab doing these tests, I am currently waiting for my results. My doc ordered them because she wanted to have an answer to exact these questions you are all asking. I am not sure that it is OK to post their website, but I trust that it will be deleted if not. This company is BTW also selling 5HTP.

https://www.neurorelief.com/
or
https://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=7&Itemid=49

My tests are quite comprehensive and cost $220. It is a urine test, they want you to take the second urine in the morning. There are detailed instructions that you can also download from the site. You can also print a flyer for your doc, or search for docs who are doing this kind of stuff. I think it is generally better if it is a psychiatrist and not a general practitioner. My doc said that this test costs thousands if done by other labs. Not sure that is true but I have no way of testing that.

I will probably get the results this wednesday and will post if there is anything interesting.

[maudlin]

Friends,

I am totally excited. I got my neurotransmitter test results Wednesday, and I feel like I can finally do the right thing: Feed my brain with what it really needs. Stop fishing in the dark not knowing what I am doing.

After reading here and elsewhere, and comparing all my symptoms, I was convinced that my dopamine is low and serotonin OK. But it turns out to be wrong. My serotonin and epinephrine are low; but dopamine, GABA, agmatine, and norepinephrine are elevated. The rest is in the normal range, although I found my taurine at the lower end of the optimal range. I never wanted to admit it, but Red Bull always made me feel great; well, it is because of the taurine in it.

What I am getting now to support these neurotransmitters contains a mix of 5-HTP, taurine, glycine, Rhodiola Rosea, Vitamins, and some other stuff that I think are amino acids mainly (I guess that is what others here have called brain food).

I don't know whether there are other places that do this testing elsewhere in the world (my friend in Germany who works in a psychiatric clinic said that she has never heard of this). But if you live in the US, I can only recommend to scratch those $218 together, find a doctor who will request the tests for you (it has to go through a health care provider), and find out what is really going on in your brain. The test itself is absolutely painless, all you have to do is follow the rules and pee, and then send it in in a prepaid box. Some insurances even pay for the testing, check the Neuroscience website and see if you are lucky. When you order the recommended supplements from Neuroscience, it is quite expensive, I almost fainted when I heard what I had to pay for a month's supply, but anything that gets me out of this mess is worth it, even if I am broke afterwards. And I will do some research to see whether I can get something similar from elsewhere cheaper.

BTW, the Neuroscience website has a great overview over brain, how it works, and all the neurotransmitters and neuromodulators. It is hard to read but I learned a lot that way. And if you are suffering from migraines, they have special tests and help for that as well.

If you want to know why this neurotransmitter testing is not more widely distributed, then follow the money. If about 7% of the US population in any given year are suffering from depression, that is 13-14 million people, but all you need to cure this is the right food, and not chemicals, then someone will be losing a lot of money. Regular psychiatry now is nothing better than palm reading or astrology to me (no offense to anybody here, but scientific approaches have some clear advantages).

I would like to repeat here that I am a humble but happy customer at this place, I have no financial interests. But if this all helps at least one other person, I'll be happy.

Maudlin - reverting back to Maud

[ratboy83]

thats interesting about the test results. there's one thing that has confused me though. how is one meant to target JUST low adrenaline levels when herbs and amino acid precursors used to target low adrenline also target noradrenaline and dopamine (synthesis of adrenaline comes at the end of a step wise process: (L-phennylaline)>L-tyrosine>L-dopa>dopamine>noradrenaline>adrenaline). you mentioned that your dopamine levels are high so how can you increase adrenaline without also incresing dopamine. from what i know of rhodiola rosea it studeis have shown that it raises dopamine levels through inhibiting the enzyme that breaks it down and also by increasing the blood-brain barrier to dopamine precursors. I'm a little confused. i can see how the 5-HTP will do the trick for the low serotonin as it is only converted to serotonin but the dopamine and adrenaline issue has confused me a littel- please clarify. :wobblyeyes:

alex.

[maudlin]

This is exactly what I have been puzzled about for a few days now. If dopamine and noradrenaline are high, but adrenaline is low, then there must be an error in the conversion of DA to noradrenaline to adrenaline. What I found out today is that taurine is used to break down dopamine into DOPAL and DOPAC. Since the stuff that I am getting will have taurine, I guess it should help reduction of too much dopamine. For the conversion from DA to noradrenaline the brain needs Vitamin C, and from NorAdr to Adrenaline it needs SAMe and cortisol. So I am wondering whether these things will help reduce dopamine, not by preventing it being produced, but by helping it getting converted to the later step. I felt pretty lousy yesterday, so I got a Red Bull today just to try out. And it was the best day in a long time. I also got some taurine as supplement today at the store, will see how that works. If my explanation is correct, it would help lower dopamine by converting it to DOPAL and DOPAC.

This stuff that I have ordered is still not here, so I cannot tell you whether it works or not, but I will post as soon as I have it. From what I understand, it will re-balance my brain in a rather rough way, so like a Ctrl-Alt-Del kind of thing. Since it is based on providing the precursors of neurotransmitters rather than the neurotransmitters themselves (or even worse, just preventing the reuptake, like SSRIs do) the brain should have all the ingredients necessary to build all the neurotransmitters from scratch. That is also something I learned: Reuptake is not a disruption in the function of the synapse and the neurotransmitters, but normal for the greatest amounts of the neurotransmitters. They are being reused after they transmitted the message, and only some are transported into the bloodstream and then released into kidneys and out. SSRIs are preventing reuptake, thus artificially increasing neurotransmitter levels without increasing them from scratch, like tyrosine or phenylalanin do. So, that would explain why you can feel much worse after a while on SSRIs, because neurotransmitter supplies were entirely depleted while deceiving the brain that there are more than it actually has.

Does that all make any sense?

Thanks for the info about what RR does. I could not find that anywhere what it actually does. What I don't understand from your post, if RR increases the blood-brain barrier for phenylalanine and tyrosine, then less dopamine should be produced. No? Also, if I have increased dopamine, why do I feel better if RR increases DA even more?

Sorry for the long reply. I am still trying to figure things out.

[ratboy83]

[quote=maudlin;3794]
Since it is based on providing the precursors of neurotransmitters rather than the neurotransmitters themselves (or even worse, just preventing the reuptake, like SSRIs do) the brain should have all the ingredients necessary to build all the neurotransmitters from scratch. That is also something I learned: Reuptake is not a disruption in the function of the synapse and the neurotransmitters, but normal for the greatest amounts of the neurotransmitters. They are being reused after they transmitted the message, and only some are transported into the bloodstream and then released into kidneys and out. SSRIs are preventing reuptake, thus artificially increasing neurotransmitter levels without increasing them from scratch, like tyrosine or phenylalanin do. So, that would explain why you can feel much worse after a while on SSRIs, because neurotransmitter supplies were entirely depleted while deceiving the brain that there are more than it actually has.


Interesting. something that has always confused me though is why the same post-use hell doesn't occur with st john's wort if you consider that it also prevents the reuptake of serotonin plus the other monoamines.

Does that all make any sense?

Thanks for the info about what RR does. I could not find that anywhere what it actually does. What I don't understand from your post, if RR increases the blood-brain barrier for phenylalanine and tyrosine, then less dopamine should be produced. No? Also, if I have increased dopamine, why do I feel better if RR increases DA even more?
quote]

the permeability of the blood-brain barrier is increased meaning the precursor amino-acids to dopamine can more easily enter the brain, thus dopamine levels should increase.

[maudlin]

Interesting. something that has always confused me though is why the same post-use hell doesn't occur with st john's wort if you consider that it also prevents the reuptake of serotonin plus the other monoamines.


well, SJW does not give you the same side effects either that you get from pharmaceutical SSRIs. does SJW only prevent serotonin reuptake or other neurotransmitters as well? is that what you mean by other monoamines?



the permeability of the blood-brain barrier is increased meaning the precursor amino-acids to dopamine can more easily enter the brain, thus dopamine levels should increase.

So again the question: if dopamine is increased through Rhodiola, why do I feel better from increasing RR if my Dopamine levels are already high to begin with? shouldn't that lead to more imbalance? and SJW did not really do me as good as RR did, although my serotonin is low.

[ratboy83]

So again the question: if dopamine is increased through Rhodiola, why do I feel better from increasing RR if my Dopamine levels are already high to begin with? shouldn't that lead to more imbalance? and SJW did not really do me as good as RR did, although my serotonin is low.

i've been thinking about this and i think i know the answer. Dopamine is increased through RR through the inhibition of the enzymes that degrade it, but as you're taking 5-HTP aswell (and not supplemetary tyrosine or phennylaline) serotonin levels will be increased far more. RR increases the permeability of the blood brain barrier to serotonin and dopamine precursors, but in your case you're providing far more serotonin precursor (5-HTP) than you are dopamine precursor (the latter is only being provided from dietary aminos, which have to compete to pass over the blood brain barrier, unlike 5HTP which uses a different entry route). Additionally, the RR should also be viewed though as an adaptogenic herb rather than just as an anti-depressant (the original focus for the herb for this thread), which is why it will beneift adrenaline levels through support of the adrenal glands.

alex.

[markiegloomie]

i've been thinking about this and i think i know the answer. Dopamine is increased through RR through the inhibition of the enzymes that degrade it, but as you're taking 5-HTP aswell (and not supplemetary tyrosine or phennylaline) serotonin levels will be increased far more. RR increases the permeability of the blood brain barrier to serotonin and dopamine precursors, but in your case you're providing far more serotonin precursor (5-HTP) than you are dopamine precursor (the latter is only being provided from dietary aminos, which have to compete to pass over the blood brain barrier, unlike 5HTP which uses a different entry route). Additionally, the RR should also be viewed though as an adaptogenic herb rather than just as an anti-depressant (the original focus for the herb for this thread), which is why it will beneift adrenaline levels through support of the adrenal glands.

alex.



I have heard the theory that serotonin levels are inversely proportional to dopamine levels.